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[–]thunderbox6726 42 points43 points  (11 children)

In terms of where do you put criminals, generally the consensus is that if someone is committing a crime for a material need (ex. theft) then the government should just help them out with whatever they're trying to pay for. For more complicated things (things that are kind of ickier) I think the general idea is try to find the root of where this behavior is coming from and treat it. Obviously don't give the pedophile access to illicit media but instead try to dig and address the root issue, and depending on what you find, treat that. If there are people who are just fucked beyond helping amd truly want to do evil things for the sake of doing evil and they find joy in doing evil or whatever you want to imagine the situation, they probably lock them up somewhere or quietly execute them.

Regarding interrogations, honestly the only part of Union that will really need to interrogate people are the UIB, cus what can some schmuck say that's gonna help the Union Navy, ya know? The scale is so huge that a confession from a few people probably won't tip the scales. Ofc, the players may need to interrogate someone. In that case, maybe work more along the bribery side of things as opposed to torture or roughing them up? If you really want to portray Union as this benevolent body of humanitarianism then that's your best bet.

The alternative is just say yeah we have this machine that we plug in through their ear and it extracts all the info we want. It's the future, you can hand wave whatever technology you want lol.

[–]Toshero_Reborn 40 points41 points  (5 children)

I don't think Union would endorse the death penalty for anyone, even the most depraved criminals.

In my opinion they have some well kept structures that function as both mental hospital and prison. Think Arkham Asylum but not completely terrible to be in.

[–]AdmiralStarNight 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Once Union gets past the check marks of ‘does this person have what they need to survive?’ And ‘can we treat the root issue here?’ This is the most likely scenario for criminals that cannot in any way be rehabilitated. A nice, secure facility that will care for them and keep them separated from the general population while still probably attempting treatments/therapy/etc until they pass.

In Union history that we know there’s only been one real public execution which was the original John Harrison.

I also kinda assume that when criminals, especially the kind the players might fight in a campaign, get Union Lancers sicced on them, that Union might go ‘eliminate this threat in whatever means possible. Alive or dead we don’t really care’ in a nudge nudge wink wink fashion given how lethal mech combat can be

[–]numberguy9647383673 16 points17 points  (3 children)

Thirdcom has executed at least one person, Harrison the 1st, founder of Harrison armory. He did kill millions of his own people by blowing up a moon and this was right at the end of the revolution so Thirdcom may have been more bitter than they are now, but as far as I can tell, he was the only named criminal to receive a sentence, and that sentence was death.

[–]Toshero_Reborn 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Tbf war criminals of that caliber deserve the death penalty

[–]Anonymous-Soap-7739 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Where is this Lore?

[–]LibTheologyConnolly 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I believe it's in the playtest version of the Field Guide to Harrison Armory from the discord. Lots of fun info in there, like how John Harrison II pissed off RA and got blown up by his own assembled variety of missiles and nukes that were originally meant to hit RA.

[–]ketjak[S] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Awesome reply, thanks! That's more or less where I landed -

  • compelled therapy (though this seems like a violation of the bondage pillar)
  • actual lockup per Toshero's reply for truly dangerous, because I can't see them executing someone who is, say, psychopathic due to double-X chromosomes, although
  • gene therapy for those who are actually physiologically impaired
  • scanning their brains since Union can already implant copied memories, I believe (I coulr be projecting)

[–]Toshero_Reborn 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Wait wait wait wait what?????

someone who is psychopathic due to double-X chromosomes

What the hell are you talking about?????

[–]RandomFurryPerson 6 points7 points  (0 children)

yeah that… where the fuck did they get THAT idea from?

[–]galmenz 1 point2 points  (1 child)

not only can you scan brains, you can scan brains on a regular basis, making cloning a viable thing for PC pilots

[–]ketjak[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, it's pretty neat. Are you familiar with Dungeon Crawler Carl?

[–]JacqN 34 points35 points  (2 children)

The books don't really touch much on what a criminal justice system looks like in Union space, and it's worth remembering that "Union" actually isn't going to be responsible for most of it anyway.

Any planet or polity under Union except the very few that are directly administered will have their own differing legal codes and standards, Union only handles the very highest level things.

That said they are presumably all tied up in "How do we imprison someone if we're supposed to ensure nobody is held in bondage and is free to move?"
I don't have a great answer to this, but the Culture series of novels posits that for the kind of people who need constant supervision, you employ something called a "slap drone" which basically just follows them around and makes sure they can't get into any trouble.

[–]thewormboy09 12 points13 points  (1 child)

I think this is probably the most in character solution to normal civilian criminal justice. I mean, it is Fully Luxury Automated Gay Space Communism so it is very much like the Culture’s post scarcity society, complete with “AI” admins who can handle taking care of convicts with full attention. At least, this is what I imagine it is like in core worlds. Something like constant supervision or a sort of reduced status and privileges.

In worlds that aren’t so lucky, like those nominally under the thumb of other polities like KTB or the corpro states they might just have guidelines that are generally kept but constantly goose stepped because their governments suck, and they are constantly in friction with Union authorities that are balancing individual rights against the fact that they’d have to commit to escalation in order to rein in abuses.

[–]ketjak[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you both!

I read (listened to) Consider Phlebas and really enjoyed it, referenced by this sub somewhere. Player of Games is in my queue. I haven't yet encountered slap drones, but that makes sense; we're in a universe where Nexus weapons effectively fire streams of nanites at targets, so...

I think of Union as coming along with a set of laws and such codifying behavior at most levels, though for a short time after contact (basically until the blink gate is re-created in-system), it is as u/JacqN says: Union administers highest levels at first.

[–]Vertrant 25 points26 points  (1 child)

Aside from an already well made point that Union doesn't administer most criminal justice, there's another simple point to make.

Research from our time has already shown that between most and all coercive methods of interrogation work poorly or not at all. Torture and physical abuse are a sign that someone doesn't know how to do interrogation, no matter how well they work as a story element. It's far too common for people to end up just telling you whatever you want to hear just to make it stop.

Competent interrogators use far more humane and positive methods to get information out of people. If that's what it's like in the 2020s, imagine what it's like in the 10000s that Lancer takes place in.

Punishment and prison will likely be similar. The easiest model i can think of for what pillar compliant punishment would look like would be the famously effective Scandinavian corrective facilities.

Take from that what you will.

[–]ketjak[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your reply.

Yep! After my mistake I reminded the players they were the good team, they made offers and found the weak spot I decided was there when I realized my mistake.

Torture is not reliable.

[–]galmenz 12 points13 points  (1 child)

player: "now we know the cost of a Utopia 😔"

GM: "dude you killed 3 civilians and burned down an orphanage"

[–]ketjak[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Heh. They were told specifically they have to avoid civilian casualties, reminding them they are the good team, and they had to stop the rebel faction because they were (lame reason) printing the parts to a fusion bomb in a small hamlet.

So, no orphanages were burned and structural damage was at a minimum, though we're talking about mechs firing weapons in a town.

[–]Daliena20 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The First Pillar: "All shall have their material needs fulfilled". The state must make food, water, shelter and just labor available to all.

The Second Pillar: "No walls shall stand between worlds". Everyone is allowed to go planetside to any location that isn't specifically granted an exception by Union administration.

The Third Pillar: "No human shall be held in bondage through force, labor or debt". No forcing people to work, imprisoning them over debts, and if someone works for you, you give them fair compensation, not company scrip equivalent to half the rent, nevermind any other necessities, or some crap.

I don't see anything there about "not allowed to use force." In fact, quite the opposite.

"Acceptance of the Utopian Pillars does not negate the need for violence or war – Union maintains an active military and its planners expect to encounter a not-insignificant degree of resistance when interacting with post-SecComm cultures.

Power never gives up power: ThirdComm, while it gives primacy to slow, diplomatic solutions (that are often unsatisfying to the petitioner), ultimately acknowledges that power, in some cases, must be taken from the powerful and redistributed to the people."

Furthermore, it can kinda become morally iffy. Let's say the Department of Justice and Human Rights is on the trail of a massive human trafficking operation. They've caught one member, but he's refusing to talk about his accomplices. Is it really the moral thing for DoJ/HR to just shrug and say "Oh well, guess those people are on their own because our only lead just doesn't wanna cooperate"?

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (3 children)

A proper approach to this really needs to also have a proper examination of our police work, and why such things would (or should) not happen in Union. The idea of any kind of interrogation, be it legal or extra-legal doesn't exist to solve crime, its purpose is to punish people - whether they are or not the real criminals. It has been beyond proven that no torture method works, no matter how 'light' it is. That tied to our limited means of supplying basic necessities come together to an unfair state of affairs when it comes to providing people with the basic necessities.

​

So with that in mind, you walk back to the original scene, and try to imagine why that person would've been taking part of their criminal activities in the first place, why they required to be forcefully arrested and held, and why Union could not provide a sensible, human solution. Like one poster also replied in the thread, there are other sci-fi works that deal with non-brutalizing criminal rehabilitation:

"I don't have a great answer to this, but the Culture series of novels posits that for the kind of people who need constant supervision, you employ something called a "slap drone" which basically just follows them around and makes sure they can't get into any trouble."

​

Which might sound too extra or farfetched, but once again, the reason we don't do this in the real world is because the point of the police is to punish people. If Union has massive resources and the good will to use them, an 'extra' solution would not be off the charts.

​

In regards to the 'interrogation', without knowing further details, I'd say dialogue and an actual, proper investigation would be the first steps; Most people commit crimes out of necessity, be it physical, social or political. A 'proper' solution would be to look into why the criminal commited their crimes and deal with the root of the issue instead of needlesly harming them.

​

*BUT* considering the 'interrogation' already happened, you do have one easy escape to deploy. Union might be striving to be an Utopia, but it still is composed of humans, and humans are not logical machines that blindly follow the Pillars, or any other moral or logic. That is, in fact, one of the crucial aspects of the book, that even when presented with a possibiltiy where everyone can live their best lives, there are still those who would rather choose greed and live above others instead. So you can play that instead it was those people who were keeping the criminal captive that had their own agenda, and took to physical punishment on their own authority, and it might be up to the party to confront them in regards to that.

[–]ketjak[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Thank you for your awesome reply! So many in this thread.

I should clarify in the post that the ensuing interrogation was a negotiation, not violent.

I shied away from referencing modern police because, well, U.S. police are only role models for gestapo. 'Nuff said, and the Union will not permit that behavior.

That said, I agree people will deviate - we're imperfect beings. I explained the roughing up that way.

[–]Daliena20 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Hell, it could well be that the smacking around is something that the interrogators regret after tempers flared and they lost control, and they're in fact willing to accept the consequences for it rather than trying to sweep it under the rug.

Even the best Union police officer probably has a breaking point somewhere - it may require astronomical effort to reach, but it exists - because they are still human. They SHOULDN'T do things like that, and a large majority no doubt know that, but people aren't automatons so sometimes emotions override logic. Can always make 'em feel haunted by how they abused their power in the heat of the moment, and if all goes well, channel that into a "I am not doing that again, and I'm going to be doubly vigilant to hopefully head things off if it looks like someone else might be about to fall into the same trap I did" attitude.

[–]ketjak[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I will follow up that there was an internal investigation and the violator was counseled. I think I indicated as much, but the details are hazy - I had a long day and ran back-to-back Lancer and Ten Candles for a friend's visit, so details are vanishing after two weeks. :)

[–]Crinkle_Uncut SSC 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Other people have covered the primary question, so I wanted to talk about your specific narrative pickle:

It seems like you've accidentally established to your players that there's a darker side to Union; that something is corrupt or broken systemically within the structure, which is dangerous territory since it's like... not true. It's a tough road to backtrack on once you've started down it. I'd recommend leaning into this and maybe having other Union personnel look into the incident (perhaps with PC assistance) to find the offender within their ranks and hold them accountable, reinforcing the fact that abusing detainees is not the norm and in fact taken very seriously. Or maybe an investigation reveals that Union wasn't responsible at all and that an outside agency was.

Alternatively, this could be a good time for an out-of character talk about setting expectations! Just tell them what happened explicitly like you did in this post, that it was just something you said without really thinking about it, and that it wasn't intended to be like... a window into Union's seedy underbelly or anything.

Union, afterall, is fundamentally good and has legitimate intentions. They are absolutely flawed, and individuals within Union can be corrupt, unjust, etc., but Union is overall a force for good RAW/RAI. If any of your content plans to involve Union in a significant way, it's important that this is established early on.

This is one of the difficult things about Lancer as a setting as it relates to onboarding newcomers: most scifi media depicts large governmental bodies as either outwardly authoritarian, or secretly underhanded with ulterior motives. Some of the most popular sci stuff out there is like this. Star Wars, WH40K, etc (though there are notable counter-examples that often get ignored). As a result, new players often intuitively want to believe that Union is the same way to conform with common convention and tropes, which means all they need is one little piece of evidence to confirm the preconceived notion and never look back.

[–]ketjak[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your reply! I will follow up with them to describe the Union internal investigation.

[–]goop_lizard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Depends on where you're operating honestly. Most games I've seen spend a lot of time on the periphery or in other places without strong union oversight, so justice is likely to be harsher (worse prisoner accommodations, violent interrogations, etc). These are the kinds of situations my group's worker-owned security contracting cooperative tends to seek out, as more concentrated power, violent methods being commonplace, and smaller overall scale all make things more dynamic and interesting.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For the interrogation of enemy military forces, you can get around it by having Union forces datamine the enemy mechs and ships to extract the intel they need from their archives and Comp/Cons: no amount of encryption can resist probing by an NHP indefinitely.

If that's not an option, well, the police manages to get clues and confessions without torture all the time. Plus, in 5016U someone's Omninet history and personal Comp/Con slate are a goldmine of information; and I have to imagine that forensic technology has advanced dramatically as well.